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alt.mythology General FAQ ver. 1.0
Archive-name: mythology/general-faq
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1999/10/12
Version: 1.0
URL: http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/mythgenfaq.html
Contents:
Welcome to alt.mythology! In this newsgroup we discuss myths, legends, their
details, their historical contexts, their interconnections, etc. - in short,
just about everything concerning mythology. John A. Johnson started this group
back in December 1991. His charter for the newsgroup serves as general
guidelines for the scope of discussions here, although we have since evolved to
become more inclusive than the more academic tone the charter may indicate:
Charter for alt.mythology
"The purpose of this group is to promote insights into, and understanding
of, human nature through the discussion of mythology, where mythology is
defined as the metaphorical expression of the human psyche through symbols and
images. While focusing primarily on myths expressed as oral or written
stories, the group also welcomes material on dreams and on semiotics
generally, as these areas may further our understanding of myths. The group
welcomes articles written from any perspective, including, but not limited to,
the anthropological, philological, etiological, ethnological, psychological,
and personal viewpoints. The group encourages contributions from any frame of
thought, including, but not limited to, ritualism, diffusionism,
structuralism, parallelism, psychoanalysis, and culturalism."
in addition Johnson adds:
"As you see, the group is open to a multitude of approaches to mythology.
I would like to make one thing clear, though: This group is intended to be a
forum for intellectual discussions of mythology, and not for religious
proselytizing or flame-wars."
Proselytizing for or denegrating against someone's religion is considered
both rude and off-topic in this newsgroup. Assertions of the imminence of the
apocalypse, or of that the characters in our myths were extra-terrestrial aliens
are also inappropriate. Discussing creation and flood stories here is fine.
Debating the truth of those stories is not, and is better suited to talk.origins.
 | We won't do your homework for you. However, we might be able to suggest
some directions to take in your research if you have specific questions. |
| Be polite. Obey basic rules of netiquette as can be found in news.announce.newusers.
| We may have discussed the topic before - check Dejanews
http://www.dejanews.com to see if past threads may hold the answers to
your questions.
| Specific questions are more likely to get useful answers than general
ones.
| Don't spam.
| Avoid crossposting, particularly to newsgroups you don't regularly read.
| Do not post binaries (pictures, sound files, etc.) to this newsgroup. Not
everyone can handle those relatively large files and binaries in non-binary
groups have been known to get those newsgroups removed from some ISP's.
Instead put them on a web page or post them to an alt.binaries.* group and
post a notice to their location on this group. |
| | | | |
The word "myth" has several meanings. In the most general sense, it
refers to any invented story, but in the sense used on alt.mythology,
it refers to a traditional story, usually very old, which has or once had
significant spiritual, moral, or social significance. "Mythology"
refers both to a body of myths (such as all Greek myths) and to the study of
myths.
Important to the definition is what myth is not. Stories which, from their
origin, are set in print and passed down unchanged are not myth. Myth is a form
of folklore, which means that it is shaped by the "folk" in general,
and not just one or a few authors. Many myths are collected in books, but they
have had long oral traditions before that. Second, folklore is not myth if it is
not a story, so proverbs, superstitions, riddles, etc. are not myth as such.
However, they may appear in myths, and isolated elements of myths are often
discussed in alt.mythology.
Note that most stories associated with current religions are, by definition,
myths. This does not belittle them; on the contrary, it says that people
consider them important enough to repeat over many generations.
Professionals distinguish between mythology, legend, and folktale, although
all get discussed without distinction on alt.mythology. Very briefly, myths are
considered true by the people who tell them; they are usually set near the
beginning of time and often concern the origins of things. Legends are also
regarded as true, but are set later in history when the world was much as it is
today. Folklore is considered false by the people telling it, and its setting in
time and space is usually irrelevant. Myths are considered sacred, legends are
more often secular, and folktales aren't taken seriously (although the overall
message might be). Although this classification is useful, there is plenty of
overlap, and stories range over too much territory to fit nicely in any simple
classification.
If you look at the first two chapters of Genesis you'll find that there are two
creation stories. In the first chapter, God makes man and woman at the same
time. In the second chapter, man is made from dust and woman, Eve, is made from
his rib. These two accounts led to the idea that there was a first Eve, prior to
the Eve that is the mother of Cain and Abel.
Prior to this confusion, there existed a Sumerian demoness or type of
demoness called lilitu, who was either adopted by or was the etymological
antecedent for the Hebrew "Lilith". For the Hebrews, Lilith was
originally a demoness who was held responsible for crib death.
Sometime between 800 CE and 1000 CE, The Alphabet of Ben-Sira was
written, combining these two traditions. There, for the first time, Lilith is
named as the first Eve, stating that she left Adam because she refused to be
treated as an inferior to Adam (particularly, in bed).
Because she refused to return, she is made to kill 100 of her children every
day.
For more information, see:
| Alan Humm's Lilith page at: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/lilith.html
| Patai, Raphael The Hebrew Goddess Third Enlarged edition. New York,
KTAV Publishing House, 1978. (Also: Wayne State University Press, 1990.)
| Schwartz, Howard. Lilith's Cave: Jewish Tales of the Supernatural.
Oxford, Oxford University Press, 1989. |
| |
The phoenix is a fabulous bird that was to have renewed itself through periodic
deaths and rebirths. As such, this bird is often used as a symbol of
resurrection and immortality. References to the phoenix have been found in the
writings and tales of China/Japan, ancient Egypt (Benu), and the Classical
writings of Hesiod, Ovid, Pliny, Tacitus, Herodotus, and Seneca.
| Source: Symbolic and Mythical Animals by J.C. Cooper |
For more information - Offline:
| Any bestiary
 | such as Symbolic and Mythical Animals by J.C. Cooper |
| Any dictionary of symbolism
| such as Dictionary of Symbols by Jack Tresidder |
| The Myth of the Phoenix by R. Van Den Broek (out of print?) |
| |
For more information - Online:
For illustrations - Offline:
| Any illustrated bestiary
| The Phoenix Cards by Susan Sheppard and Debbie Kempton-Smith
| Treasury of Fantastic and Mythological Creatures by Richard Huber
| Symbols, Signs, & Signets by Ernst Lehner |
| | |
For illustrations - Online:
NOTE: Since finding good phoenix pictures on-line is a bit like questing
for the Holy Grail, please forward URL's of good phoenix pictures to the FAQ
staff for possible FAQ inclusion.
Sisyphus. Zeus had seduced the daughter of the river god Asopus, and Sisyphus
ratted on Zeus to Asopus. Zeus was very angry and had Sisyphus punished in this
way, although Sisyphus didn't go down without a fight. First he managed to trick
Death and tied him up; after he'd been taken down to Hades, he managed to get
out, and lived happily at home until he died of old age!
In Greek myth, it was Prometheus. Other cultures had/have tales with similar
themes featureing different characters, such as Coyote or Beaver in Native North
American myth and legend.
Tiresias. The story can be found in Ovid's Metamorphoses, book III.
These two television series draw heavily on mythology from around the world,
but, by and large, they don't let accuracy get in the way of entertainment. Once
in a while there is a real blooper, as when the scriptwriters christened nasty
little vampires "dryads"-as we all know, real dryads are gentle
tree-nymphs-and we can certainly disagree with the interpretation of various
characters, but, mostly, they do a pretty fair job, considering their
priorities. Here, for the curious, is some "real" information about
some of the recurring characters-no gods or monsters, as they're easy to find
information about elsewhere. Hercules himself was as "real" as they
come, of course (his original Greek name was Heracles, which means "glory
of Hera"). Xena, Gabrielle, Joxer and many other leading "Xena"
characters are fictional, though the idea of the fighting Amazon is very much a
part of Greek myth. (Gabrielle, as a name, would not exist, until the Middle
Ages.)
ALCMENE:
- While married to Amphitrion, she gave birth to twin sons, Heracles and
Iphicles. Herc's real father, however, was the god Zeus. (In mythological
stories about twins, it is common to attribute the paternity of one of them
to a god.) One of the odder twists of the TV series is to give Alcmene Jason
as a second husband. There is no Greek base for this. Moreover, Jason, both
on TV and in myth, was of Herc's generation, and, in myth, had a complicated
married life of his own.
- AUTOLYCUS:
- Yes, he really was the "king of thieves," a master thief of such
skill that he reputedly could magically disguise the objects he stole. And,
yes, he was widely acquainted. He really did know Heracles, Iolaus,
Sisyphus, Salmoneus, Jason and most of the rest of the "regulars."
Fun fact: His grandson was Odysseus, who appears in The Iliad and The
Odyssey-Odysseus is also considered a tricky character. Fun fact #2: He
turns up again as a lovable-and tuneful!-rogue in Shakepeare's play,
"The Winter's Tale."
- CALLISTO:
- Not nearly as tough a cookie as her TV counterpart. She was one of the
band of nymphs attending Artemis, the virgin goddess of the hunt. Seduced by
Zeus's wily ways, she got pregnant. When Artemis, who demanded strict
chastity of the girls, found out, she went into a rage, turned her into a
bear, set the dogs on her, and called the other nymphs to join the hunt.
Callisto wouldn't have had a chance, had Zeus not intervened to catch her up
to the stars as the Great Bear.
- CYRENE:
- Xena's mom, in the show. The "real" Cyrene was a tomboy Lapith
princess, a huntress so brave and strong that she caught the eye of Apollo
himself as she wrestled with a lion. He kidnapped her in his golden chariot,
and bore her away to a city that she would eventually rule. She slept with
him, but also with Ares, bore several sons, and eventually became a powerful
occult priestess. The "Xena" writers seem to have borrowed from
her legend for Xena's own personality.
- IOLAUS:
- Herc's charioteer, best friend, sidekick-and nephew, son of Herc's twin
brother, Iphicles. Thus he was a good deal younger than Herc; one story has
Herc trying to pass a discarded wife on to him when he was only 16. (The
"real" Herc was nowhere near as saintly as his TV counterpart.)
Iolaus participated in most of the Twelve Labors central to Herculean
mythology, and many of his other adventures. Just as in the TV series, he
never got much credit for his aid.
- JASON:
- One of the four great Greek action-adventure heroes, the others being
Heracles, Theseus and Perseus. His character on the show has been almost
entirely changed from the original, and his story is too complex to
summarize here. But he never married Herc's mother!
- SALMONEUS:
- Not a bit like the TV character. The "real" Salmoneus was mostly
known for his bitter rivalry with Sisyphus, that bad man, but he was also
thought to be a rainmaker. He was the great-grandfather of Jason, which just
goes to show how chronology gets mixed up.
In addition to earlier folkore, two historical personages are deeply imbedded in
the modern conception of the vampire: Vlad Tepes, and Elizabeth Bathory. Their
stories are told at number of websites. One such site is:
here
- Ouroboros (from Greek Alchemy)
- Jörmungand, the Midgard Serpent (Norse Myth)
There are lots of flood myths from all over the world, but not everywhere and
there are many variations, see:
http://www.best.com/~atta/floods.htm
Comparing these stories is on topic here. Debating or asserting the veracity
(or lack thereof) of these stories is not and is better suited for talk.origins.
Caveat lector ("let the reader beware") as it's a commercial site,
but http://www.flood-myth.com/ also
includes comparisions of the Near Eastern flood myths including Noah's flood.
| Barnstone, Willis ed., The Other Bible, Harper Collins, New York,
1984. This volume collects a number of excerpts from extra-canonical works -
those that didn't make it into the official Bible. Here they are organized
by theme and would otherwise require hunting through collections of
pseudepigrapha & apocrypha.
| Bulfinch, Thomas Mythology (Includes The Age of Fable, The
Age of Chivalry and Legends of Charlemagne) Bullfinch's work is a
digest of classical mythology, Arthurian and Carolingian Legends, as well as
a bit about Egyptian and Norse mythology.
| Dalley, Stephanie Myths from Mesopotamia, Oxford University Press,
New York, 1990. The most recent collection of the major Babylonian myths is
also among the least expensive and more enjoyable reads.
| Gantz, Jeffrey, The Mabinogion, Viking Penguin Inc., New York,
1976. There are other good translations of this collection of Welsh legends
but Gantz is highly readable, easy to find and has some useful notes.
| Gill, Sam and Sullivan, Irene, Dictionary of Native American Mythology
Few books on "Native American Mythology" are any good at being
resprentative of the wide range of myths and legends of the various Native
American peoples. This one of the best and is quite helpful in researching
various Native American myth and legend particulars and motifs.
| Graves, Robert, The Greek Myths. There is an old Braziller edition
as well as newer ones.
| Jones, Alison LaRousse Dictionary of World Folklore This little
volume covers a wide range of topics - mythology, folklore, symbolism,
legend, and superstitions. Where else can you look up lucky charms, the
Jersey Devil, the Norns, and vampires in one book? ;)
| Lurker, Manfred, Dictionary of God and Goddesses, Devils and Demons
This is just way tooooo handy of a volume to look up all those deities I'm
just not familiar with.
| Ovid, The Metamorphoses. Many famous myths made poetical.
| Pritchard James B., Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old
Testament, Princeton University Press, Princeton, 1955. There is also a
1969 supplement to this work, as well as a companion volume, The Ancient
Near East in Pictures. It used to be the authoritative source for all
complete texts of the Sumerians, Babylonians, Canaanites, Hittites although
now there are more recent, separate translations. It's pricy but many
libraries have a copy and there is a much more affordable, abridged
paperbound version.
| Sproul, Barbara Primal Myths. The only cross-cultural collection I
know of which collects the stories in as close to their original form as
possible. It gives only creation myths, but it includes myths from all parts
of the world. |
| | | | | | | | | |
Runners up:
| Green, Miranda, Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend
| Erdoes, Richard and Ortiz Alfonso eds. American Indian Myths and
Legends
| Pennick, Nigel and Jones, Prudence A History of Pagan Europe
| Zimmerman's Dictionary of Classical Mythology |
| | |
The following books all belong to the World Mythology Series from Peter Bedrick
books. These books are richly illustrated, include a very nice cross section of
myths and history from the respective culture, and are reasonably accurate
retellings. Unfortunately not all of these volumes are still in print:
| Angels, Prophets, Rabbis, & Kings from the Stories of the Jewish
People by Jose Patterson.
| Demons, Gods & Holy Men from Indian Myths & Legends by
Shahrukh Husain.
| Dragons, Gods & Spirits from Chinese Mythology by Tao Tao Liu
Sanders.
| Druids, Gods & Heroes from Celtic Mythology by Anne Ross.
| Fabled Cities, Princes & Jinn from Arab Myths and Legends by
Khairat Al-Saleh.
| Gods and Heroes from Viking Mythology by Brian Branston.
| Gods and Pharaohs from Egyptian Mythology by Geraldine Harris.
| Gods, Men and Monsters from the Greek Myths by Michael Gibson.
| Heroes, Gods & Emperors from Roman Mythology by Kerry Usher.
| Heroes, Monsters, and Other Worlds from Russian Mythology by
Elizabeth Warner.
| Kings, Gods & Spirits from African Mythology by Jan Knappert.
| Spirits, Heroes & Hunters from North American Indian Mythology
by Marion Wood.
| Warriors, Gods and Spirits from Central and South American Mythology
by Douglas Gifford. |
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Some other very nice books for younger readers follow. Same proviso applies -
not all of these volumes are still in print.
| In the Beginning: Creation Stories from Around the World by
Virginia Hamilton. Various. Color illustrations.
| The Illustrated Book of Myths by Neil Philip. Various. Photos and
color illustrations.
| Mythical Journeys, Legendary Quests by Moyra Caldecott. Various.
Color and B/W illustrations.
| The Singing Sack: 28 Song-Stories from Around the World by Helen
East. Various. A very different format. Folktales and traditional songs. Can
be accompanied by a recording of the songs.
| D'Aulaires' Greek Mythology by Ingri D'Aulaire and Edgar Parin
D'Aulaire. Ancient Greece. Color and B/W illustrations.
| Celtic Fairy Tales by Joseph Jacobs. "Celt". Multiple
titles by same author. Inexpensive. B/W illustrations.
| d'Aulaires' Norse Gods and Giants, by Ingri and Edgar Parin
d'Aulaires. Norse. Color and B/W illustrations.
| Adopted by the Eagles by Paul Goble. Native American. Numerous
titles by same author. Color illustrations by author.
| Iroquois Stories: Heroes and Heroines, Monsters and Magic by Joseph
Bruchac. Native American. B/W illustrations.
| Skywoman: Legends of the Iroquois by Joanne Shenandoah and Douglas
George. Native American. B/W illustrations. |
| | | | | | | | |
[If you have any suggestions for really great sources for readers of all
ages, please forward them to the FAQ staff. We'll review them
for possible inclusion!]
Here are some sources that will aid in researching the symbolism or
mythological/folkloric references of animals.
Should you know of other sources that would be a great help to others doing
similar research, please pass the information along to the FAQ
staff for possible inclusion in this list.
Sources on multiple animals and creatures:
| Zoo of the Gods by Anthony S. Mercatante
| Wildlife Folklore by Laura C. Martin
| Symbolic & Mythological Animals by J.C. Cooper
| The Bestiary: a Book of Beasts by T.H. White
| Hargreaves New Illustrated Bestiary by Joyce Hargreaves
| Lady of the Beasts: Ancient Images of the Goddess and Her Sacred
Animals by Buffie Johnson |
| | | | |
Encyclopedias and Dictionaries not specifically focusing on animals and other
creatures:
| Dictionary of Native American Mythology by Sam D. Gill and Irene F.
Sullivan
| Dictionary of Symbols by Jack Tresidder
| The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects by Barbara
Walker
| Motif-Index of Folk-Literature by Stith Thompson
| The Encyclopedia of Things that Never Were: Creatures, Places and
People by Michael Page and Robert Ingpen |
| | | |
Sources on the lore of specific creatures:
| The Folktale Cat by Frank de Caro
| Ravensong: A Natural and Fabulous History of Ravens and Crows by
Catherine Feher Elston
| The Sacred Paw: The Bear in Nature, Myth, and Literature by Paul
Shepard and Barry Sanders |
| |
| Encyclopedia Mythica - maintains thousands of short articles about myth
topics from all over the world. It also has sub-indexes broken down by
cultural group:
http://www.pantheon.org
| Myths and Legends - This is a list, with brief descriptions, of links to
hundreds of mythology, legend & folktale related sites. It begins with a
general section and then groups the links by region, culture & language
group.
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/myth.html
| Myth and Legend from Ancient Times to the Space Age - This is another
list, with brief descriptions, of links to hundreds of mythology, legend and
folktale related sites.
http://www.pibburns.com/myth.htm
| Electronic Texts archives and links:
| The Perseus Project - An online database about ancient Greece. Includes
lots of ancient texts (including Homer, Hesiod, and the main Greek
dramatists), and pictures of ancient artwork
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/
| Herakles - Greece's Greatest Hero Web site about Herakles (more commonly
known as Hercules) at the Perseus Project.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/
| Free English Translations of the Norse Eddas and Sagas on the Internet:
http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/asatru/free.html
| Celtic myth - Anniina Jokinen presents an enormous collection of links to
Irish Literature, Mythology, Folkore, and Drama:
http://www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/
| Over a hundred Native American tales are found in the Lore section of
Stonee's Weblodge:
http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/loreindx.html
| WWW Virtual Library's Index of Native American Resources on the Internet
Native American tales.
http://www.hanksville.org/NAresources/
| Labyrinth: Resources for Medieval Studies - is the primary medieval site
on the web and collects a number of texts from and about the period from 500
to 1500 C.E.
http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/labyrinth-home.html
| Saints and such:
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
There are a number of FAQ's associated with special topics that come up in the
group. They include:
A number of other newsgroups are related to discussion here as well including:
| alt.mythology.mythic-animals
- This group is intended to be for the discussion of mythic & legendary
animals & monsters. It is also dominated by a lot of PBNG (play by
newsgroup) free-form roleplaying.
| alt.mythology.mythic-animals.gryphons
| alt.mythology.jinn - a fairly low
trafic NG devoted to the discussion of jinni (aka genie, djinni), ifrits,
marids, et al.
| alt.legend.king-arthur - a group
of similar character to alt.mythology, but focused on discussing the many
versions of the Arthurian tale, ranging from possible historical roots to
modern retellings and movies.
| sci.classics - discussion of Ancient Greek
and Latin literature
| humanities.classics - sci.classics
regrouped? |
| | | | |
AltaVista is a great general search engine, particularly if you are searching
for an specific or unusual topic.
AltaVista 1
AltaVista 2
The most popular disciple of Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell and his ideas about
archetypes and universal myths are no strangers to this forum. He does tend to
be criticized here for, among other things, making overly broad generalizations.
Also his fans are often chided for not seeing much of Jung's work in Campbell's.
Still it can not be argued that Campbell has not been a major force behind the
popularity of the study of mythology over the past thirty years. Check dejanews
before starting another Campbell thread here. Other arenas perhaps more suited
to discussion of his works are:
If you're not looking for newsgroups specifically, there are *lots* of Joseph
Campbell forums out there. (And there may be J.C. newsgroups, too... we just
don't know of any.)
These are usually off topic here but...
Get ye to http://www.luckymojo.com and
the newsgroup alt.lucky.w
The members of the alt.mythology FAQ committee are: Kim Burkard greenman@servtech.com,
Chris Camfield ccamfield@sympatico.ca,
Dick Eney dicconf@Radix.Net, Katherine
Griffis-Greenberg grifcon@mindspring.com,
Mark Isaak atta@best.com, Don Redmond dredmond@math.siu.edu,
Chris Siren cbsiren@cisunix.unh.edu,
and Alice Turner akt@attglobal.net, and
have been assisted by the rest of alt.mythology in authoring this FAQ. |
